Debating

[VOIPoTim]

I know some of you are more technical and curious why we do things a certain way from a technical perspective, but I'm just curious why people debate our setup without knowing how things are really setup anyway?

I know there's another thread on DSLReports debating our entire infrastructure, but no one really knows how it's setup except us. As an example, Nitzan is posting saying we only need 2 database servers yet he says he's never even used OpenSER or anything similar to what we use. Asterisk is a lot different.

Ultimately I think a lot of people are very tense right now (no one in particular at all..just in general) and many are trying very hard to find issues or provoke debates.

That's the primary reason we chose not to post in the infrastructure thread. No one knows the setup, our customer base, or requirements, so it's kind of pointless to debate with them about it. I know some people are just curious, but it gets beyond that and turns into a debate very quickly in most threads, so we opt to just stay out of them.

Just curious what others have to say about this...

[VOIPoTim]

Along the same lines it's with the reviews, some people want to "prove" that we tried to get people to change reviews even though that was not the case.

When we have a special, some of the same people post that we "need cash" even though we have huge liquidity right now.

Obviously trying to interact with the community provokes a lot of this and it's just part of it, but it seems like lately it's been on the rise.

Maybe people are just tense about the economy?

[Xponder1]

Along the same lines it's with the reviews, some people want to "prove" that we tried to get people to change reviews even though that was not the case.

When we have a special, some of the same people post that we "need cash" even though we have huge liquidity right now.

Obviously trying to interact with the community provokes a lot of this and it's just part of it, but it seems like lately it's been on the rise.

Maybe people are just tense about the economy?

Not trying to be rude but I think you care too much what folks say on there. From what I can tell the majority of your customers are happy. There are only what 5 negative ((56 positive) (5 negative)) reviews. I will not call anyone out but at least 1 of those peoples issues have nothing to do with VOIPo, one exaggerated and lied (and that is me putting it nicely), one needs to update their review because I think replacing their ATA probably fixed their problem, and then there is the guy who received a refund so who cares what he thinks anyway.

Oh, and I do not understand the thought process for some of these people who you offer a refund and they treat it like your trying to pay them off or bribe them. You did not offer them anything extra you just said "I understand your unhappy with the service so here is your money back and I wish you the best".

Everyone has different setups and if something does not work they just assume its VOIPo but then they replace their router firmware or forward a port and it works. Not your problem.

In my opinion replies from VOIPo on there should be limited to answering tech questions and everything else should be blown off. It's no ones business but yours what your infrastructure is like. They either buy it and love it or they get their money back and try something else (and maybe try again later).

The rating system on DSL reports is broken anyway. At least here on these forums you have the control to keep things orderly.

[burris]

Tim....

DSLReports is loaded with armchair engineers. Some well meaning and some who think they know it all.
It seems we are an era of people challenging everything for what reasons, I don't know. I believe a technical forum should be a tool for the exchange of ideas and suggestions and, not about moral preaching. There are forums dedicated to those issues.

What could be better for a person who can't get his service working, than to be offered his entire money back with no obligation? For some, the challenge won't allow them to take the offer. They have an innate need to complain and post on and on....all the while stating how important their phone service is and how their wives complain. One would think that if it is really that bad, they would move on...at no charge.
This behavior really begins to tell you about how a person is constructed and the problems are theirs and not yours, and the infrastructure comments have nothing to do with it-they just have nothing else to say.
I have always wondered about people telling someone how to run their business, especially if the business is working well for 99%.
A suggestion or question is one thing, but the philosophical/moral discussions from people who I can bet have not lived an absolutely virtuous life are ridiculous.

Sure, the economic situation is pressing virtually everyone, but to be able to have the quality of phone service that I have-at the price I am paying, should be a joy for everyone.

Just keep up the good work and don't let those few get to you..

burris

[gbh2o]

It's just a matter of age and wisdom Tim.

Back in my younger days, I too was privileged to have a clear crystal ball and magic wand that allowed me to second guess everyone and anything, _and_ tosee clearly and be able to fix anything! ;-) Now that I've aged a bit, the crystal ball has clouded and cracked a bit, and the magic wand has a damn intermittent short, I can still try to second guess everyone and anything even though I'm half blind, and attempts to fix things may still reflect brilliance, but often it's just the reflection of the arcing from the short in the damn wand! ;(

The real difference? I used to just have a solid belief that I was the best and knew what was right; now, with age and the wisdom that comes with it, I am positive that I know more than anyone else that I can find through the fog, and know that I'm near invincible ( except for that damn short that I'm still trying to track down.)

So, you see, since I'm fully qualified to provide forty year old solutions to problems that didn't even exist before you were in diapers, I've got to know far more about what you're doing than you do. And, the best part, my advice is free and I get to hear myself talk.

[frankd1]

Along the same lines it's with the reviews, some people want to "prove" that we tried to get people to change reviews even though that was not the case.

When we have a special, some of the same people post that we "need cash" even though we have huge liquidity right now.

Obviously trying to interact with the community provokes a lot of this and it's just part of it, but it seems like lately it's been on the rise.

Maybe people are just tense about the economy?

Like others mentioned, there are a million armchair QBs out there (I'm guilty of gracing you with my opinion a few months back). And the economy, along with the system hiccups, is defintely bringing the worst out of people. I do think you ABSOLUTELY need to keep communicating, like you've always done. But with the recent problems, everyone thinks they know the fix, so you need to just communicate the problems/status/remedies in timely fashions, and turn a deaf ear to suggestions or specific questions about your architecture. It's nice for us nerds to be talked to as peers, but you sometime need to change hats and be an authoritative voice presenting the facts, not open for discussion, as long as you're delivering on the announced gameplans.

In regards to the reviews, I do think it was a diplomatic dud the way you presented it, even though it was completely innocent. You're obviously getting screwed with the DSLR rankings process, so the better approach (IMO) would be to relay (like you did) what was happening and the inherent BS of the system, and ask people (if they were comfortable) to tell their friends and fellow board trolls about their hopefully good VOIPo experience (and maybe even start lobbying the DSLR mods for a new, well balanced ranking algorithm, since a lot of people make decisions based on GBU). A lot of us would read between the lines and post or repost our reviews to counteract reviewers who were skewing results. Others would just discuss the screwed up ranking system. Either way, you'd get some good exposure: improved ratings, and board discussion of how a few whiners with too much time on their hands are skewing the ratings. Any flames would be between users, keeping you above the fray.

Anyway, my $.02 at 3;43AM.

[Russell]

In regards to the reviews, I do think it was a diplomatic dud the way you presented it, even though it was completely innocent. You're obviously getting screwed with the DSLR rankings process, so the better approach (IMO) would be to relay (like you did) what was happening and the inherent BS of the system, and ask people (if they were comfortable) to tell their friends and fellow board trolls about their hopefully good VOIPo experience (and maybe even start lobbying the DSLR mods for a new, well balanced ranking algorithm, since a lot of people make decisions based on GBU). A lot of us would read between the lines and post or repost our reviews to counteract reviewers who were skewing results. Others would just discuss the screwed up ranking system. Either way, you'd get some good exposure: improved ratings, and board discussion of how a few whiners with too much time on their hands are skewing the ratings. Any flames would be between users, keeping you above the fray.

Anyway, my $.02 at 3;43AM.

Let me start of by saying I'm seriously evaluating VOIPo - as the days go by more issues with the infrastructure are getting fixed, which is great - so I have a vested interest in your success since I've paid up for 2 years and invested a fair amount of time working through infrastructure bugs. Hopefully, the last of these which affect me (router rebooting every hour) was fixed yesterday.

As a business owner, I too would want my business shown in the best light so I can well understand the motivation. I would agree with Frank's suggestions above - with one caveat: the initial post should have been on DSLR's VOIP TECH forum without the VOIPo tag. After all, it's an inherent criticism of that system and it's only fair it be published there. That way it would also apply to all companies which are rated by DSLR and so it would blunt any criticism that you're trying to game the system, as a post in a company forum with lots of loyal users may be interpreted. As Frank said your readers would have read between the lines.

[Montano]

Well it's the interwebs, where everyone is all knowing

[fisamo]

When it comes to debating in a thread about your infrastructure, it seems to me that you only stand to lose by posting. After all, someone can "always" do it better than the experts, and everything "always" needs improvement. At best, you'll be able to say, "I'm right" publicly; at worst, you're giving out too much proprietary information on your network (whether a security breach or giving your competitors too much of your infrastructure information).

As for the drama over at DSLR, I'll just say that for a while, CallVantage was the topic of the day, then ViaTalk, then SunRocket, then ViaTalk, now Voipo. You've made a pretty significant splash (at least in the world as known by the members of the BBR VoIP forum) when you launched. Since launch, you've seen several challenges, which only adds to the drama. IMO, your best bet is to participate in the discussion when you have something important to add (or your integrity to defend), and do your best to not need that integrity defense.

Case in point, your request here for people to update their reviews was _NOT_ wrong, unethical, immoral, etc (IMO). However, it clearly offended some peoples' sensitivities and put you in the position of having to defend yourself. Think about it--10+ reviews of a particular ISP's product in a 1-2 day time span isn't normal around here, especially if it's not right at an obvious "big event" (such as launch, major feature addition, website overhaul/redesign, etc). That kind of spike in review activity will get noticed and called out on the BBR VoIP forum.

[scott2020]

Don't worry about the 25 people who read DSLR. What percentage of the Monday morning QB's of VOIP there make up your whole customer base? Some of these nerds need to get a life.

If they have problems with Comcast, Charter, Verizon, AT&T, do those people contact their CEO's and start demanding infrastructure information? If they do, do they get a care in the world from those companies? I don't think so. And it's none of their business.

You just do what you do the best you can and good things will come. Being honest and taking care of the customer goes much farther in the long run that what a few zit faced know it all jerks in their mom's basement say in some anonymous geek web forum.

Scott