Getting close to wit's end!

[ymhee_bcex]

They are both good devices.

With that said, there is a very big reason we use HT502s primarily....they have a built in router.

With residential customers, support will literally quadruple with PAP2Ts. Since there is no router, there is option to connect them directly to a modem. 99% of issues are caused by routers mishandling traffic. The best way to resolve that is to get the router out of the picture and connect the VoIP device to the modem then connect the customer's router downstream from it. Obviously this doesn't help in situations with a combo router/modem but for cable customers or ones with a basic DSL modem (without a router), it's a magic fix that will literally solve 99% of issues.

Tim, obviously you support a lot of customers, and you have better statistics than my experience. My dad lives in a retirement community, and his neighbors' technical skills are very limited (to put it charitably). Moreover, more than half of the people barely speak English. It happened that I helped a dozen of dad's neighbors with computer / network / VoIP phones. Out of them exactly one(!) used ATA/router as a router (Old Sipura SPA 2100). Everybody else had a router separately. Some had router built into Verizon modem; others needed wireless, so ATA/router wouldn't cut it; and yet others had a TV converter that allowed them to watch Russian or Iranian TV. Oh, and last year 3 of them got a Blu-Ray player that, obviously, needs to be connected to the Internet as well .

This experience prompted me to post a question on DSL Reports. As you can see, nobody came up with a real-life use case for built-in router.

So, having a built-in router may be helpful for troubleshooting purposes - but I really doubt that many people use it on a daily basis.

[Bob1962]

them to watch Russian or Iranian TV. Oh, and last year 3 of them got a Blu-Ray player that, obviously, needs to be connected to the Internet as well .

This experience prompted me to post a question on DSL Reports. As you can see, nobody came up with a real-life use case for built-in router.

Funny, most of the people that are having problems on this forum NEED and HAVE a router. Now would it be a smart business decision for Voipo to say we do not offer our service to businesses or people that use routers? I think that report is just stupid and based on the editors opinion, one opinion does not reflect a million peoples needs.

[usa2k]

My first Vonage back in 2003 was an ATA186, but the site recommended a Netgear 4 port router. I picked up both pieces through Vonage.
Even Vonage saw the need to provide a router solution (for an extra $40.)

My WRT54GL V1.1 running Tomato Firmware v1.23.1607 has been flawless for the time I've had VOIPo. Before that was a US Robotics modem for a
short bit. Ironically I've never forwarded ports with any service I've used(See my sig), and I've been on Wide Open West Cable, and Comcast for internet.
I always find it amazing that so many people can have so many issues (Be it Vonage, VOIPo, you-name-it ...) I often feel the conditions of success are
affected by:

1) Router
2) Local Network
3) Internet Provider
4) ATA device
5) VoIP provider
in that order.

I have no scientific proof, just observations and gut opinion.

[ram1220]

I often feel the conditions of success are
affected by:

1) Router
2) Local Network
3) Internet Provider
4) ATA device
5) VoIP provider
in that order.

I have no scientific proof, just observations and gut opinion.[/QUOTE]


Yes that is just your opinion. And my opinion and observation from my experience shows your list in the complete opposite direction. I NEVER had any problems with voip service until I came to VOIPo. And that's a fact.

[christcorp]

USA, definitely agree with the order of your list. In my home network, with 2 voip adapters, I have absolutely no issues. (other than some of the global issues that affect all customers at the same time; and are usually corrected quickly). I don't have ANY port forwarding on my home network. I also don't use the DMZ. Then again, I keep that network very bare bone. No QOS; Firewall turned OFF in the router; SPI off; UPnP off; SIP ALG off; etc... And both voip adapters work perfectly fine. I've been with voipo for about 5 years. Definitely no complaints.

I try not to make an observation based on my own experience. Good or Bad. It's too small of a sample size. But my observation is that most people's voip issues can usually be taken care of within their own network. I know some people think that they shouldn't have to touch their network. That a voip adapter should indeed be 100% plug and play. Well; that's not realistic. Maybe yours was with vonage, but I can list posts after posts of vonage customers who had plenty of network problems trying to get their vonage voip to work. The same thing can be said for every single voip provider and customer in the country. Some have a seamless plug and play experience. Some have to tweak their network, or move on to another provider. To think that a voip provider should be able to coexist 100% with complete compatibility, with hundreds of internet providers and thousands of possible network configurations is not only impractical, but very naive. But they can get close to being compatible with the majority. And voipo definitely does quite well with the majority. If not, they wouldn't have been around this long. I have seen dozens of voip providers come and go. Some lasted a year or two; some only a month or two. VoipO spent 2+ years alpha and beta testing their network before they'd even allow any customers to pay for the service. They were determined to try and be the most compatible and user friendly; as well as customer service; voip provider around. I think they've done a real good job.

Problem is, with anything, if a person has a negative experience, they can't simply admit that they are unique. Not saying it's their fault; just saying they are unique. People don't want to hear that. If they have a problem, they must convince themselves that everyone or most other people also are having a problem. Like buying a car that's a lemon. You see it all the time. A person says that they'll never buy a Ford, because "They Suck". The person had a bad experience, and therefor it MUST be Ford's fault. Therefor, ALL/Most ford customers must also be having a bad experience. Truth is; this individual is not the norm, average, or anywhere close to the majority. And you'll have just as many people say the same thing about GM, Toyota, Honda, etc... They simply can not admit that they are unique. That for them, that particular car just wasn't right. They'd have to admit their imperfection. Well; voip is no different. There's a reason that there are SO MANY VOIP PROVIDERS out there. No one voip provider can be all things to all people. Can't happen; never will; and to expect otherwise is naive. In Ram's case, he had a great experience with Vonage. Good for you. And for the things that were important to you, vonage was a great service. But each voip provider has certain things they offer that others don't. Some, it's price. Some, customer service. Some, features. Some, reliability. For the longest time, I was with Packet8. They had absolutely no features. They were more expensive than most other providers. But they had very good customer service, and their phone service ALWAYS WORKED. Then again; they are a publicly traded company, and they moved at a much slower pace. They eventually changed their business model and only sell business services. No residential.

Anyway; there's absolutely no way VoipO or any other provider can provide a service that is 100% compatible with every ISP and network configuration possible. Not out of the box. That's not practical and it's naive to think otherwise. For some, it will take some tweaking. Even on their end. The only way you can guarantee 100% compatibility, is with a closed network. That is what Ma'Bell is. The phone companies are 100% a closed network. It's their wire to the house. Their wire down the street. Their central office. Their fiber leaving town. Their equipment across the country. Plus; the bell system is a standard. ALL phone companies use the same standard. Can't do that with voip. It relies on an internet that has mixed latency; mixed technologies; mixed jitter; mixed bandwidth capacities; mixed hardware; mixed backhaul providers; mixed home networks; etc...

[burris]

Mike...

You really said it well...sums it up perfectly..

burris

[VOIPoTim]

This thread is being closed.

I feel that the last 2 posts explain the situation well. Due to the turn this thread took, I have cleaned up some of the obviousy argumentative posts that were not productive and have also removed further posts beyond the last two posts which were only dragging out this debate). The bottom line is that different VoIP services work better for different people depending upon their variables (router, ISP, home network setup, calling patterns, etc).

Less than 1% of our customers have ever even contacted our support team so that shoudl be a good indicator of how our service performs for the majority. With that said, the service is not for everyone and may not be compatible with all home networks, routers, ISPs, etc. For customers that fall into the 1% with problems, we understand and offer a full 30 day money back guarantee.


To the users having issues in this thread, we are sorry that VOIPo did not work for you and hope that you find a provider that meets your needs and works well with your setups. With that said, our forum is not an appropriate venue for continued debating or bashing. It is meant for good-natured discussion between customers.

While we generally allow everyone to express their opinion (good or bad), there is a point where we have to draw the line.

This thread is being closed.