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VOIPoTim
04-06-2009, 09:42 PM
I know some of you are more technical and curious why we do things a certain way from a technical perspective, but I'm just curious why people debate our setup without knowing how things are really setup anyway?

I know there's another thread on DSLReports debating our entire infrastructure, but no one really knows how it's setup except us. As an example, Nitzan is posting saying we only need 2 database servers yet he says he's never even used OpenSER or anything similar to what we use. Asterisk is a lot different.

Ultimately I think a lot of people are very tense right now (no one in particular at all..just in general) and many are trying very hard to find issues or provoke debates.

That's the primary reason we chose not to post in the infrastructure thread. No one knows the setup, our customer base, or requirements, so it's kind of pointless to debate with them about it. I know some people are just curious, but it gets beyond that and turns into a debate very quickly in most threads, so we opt to just stay out of them.

Just curious what others have to say about this...

VOIPoTim
04-06-2009, 09:44 PM
Along the same lines it's with the reviews, some people want to "prove" that we tried to get people to change reviews even though that was not the case.

When we have a special, some of the same people post that we "need cash" even though we have huge liquidity right now.

Obviously trying to interact with the community provokes a lot of this and it's just part of it, but it seems like lately it's been on the rise.

Maybe people are just tense about the economy?

Xponder1
04-06-2009, 10:51 PM
Along the same lines it's with the reviews, some people want to "prove" that we tried to get people to change reviews even though that was not the case.

When we have a special, some of the same people post that we "need cash" even though we have huge liquidity right now.

Obviously trying to interact with the community provokes a lot of this and it's just part of it, but it seems like lately it's been on the rise.

Maybe people are just tense about the economy?

Not trying to be rude but I think you care too much what folks say on there. From what I can tell the majority of your customers are happy. There are only what 5 negative ((56 positive) (5 negative)) reviews. I will not call anyone out but at least 1 of those peoples issues have nothing to do with VOIPo, one exaggerated and lied (and that is me putting it nicely), one needs to update their review because I think replacing their ATA probably fixed their problem, and then there is the guy who received a refund so who cares what he thinks anyway.

Oh, and I do not understand the thought process for some of these people who you offer a refund and they treat it like your trying to pay them off or bribe them. You did not offer them anything extra you just said "I understand your unhappy with the service so here is your money back and I wish you the best".

Everyone has different setups and if something does not work they just assume its VOIPo but then they replace their router firmware or forward a port and it works. Not your problem.

In my opinion replies from VOIPo on there should be limited to answering tech questions and everything else should be blown off. It's no ones business but yours what your infrastructure is like. They either buy it and love it or they get their money back and try something else (and maybe try again later).

The rating system on DSL reports is broken anyway. At least here on these forums you have the control to keep things orderly.

burris
04-07-2009, 03:59 AM
Tim....

DSLReports is loaded with armchair engineers. Some well meaning and some who think they know it all.
It seems we are an era of people challenging everything for what reasons, I don't know. I believe a technical forum should be a tool for the exchange of ideas and suggestions and, not about moral preaching. There are forums dedicated to those issues.

What could be better for a person who can't get his service working, than to be offered his entire money back with no obligation? For some, the challenge won't allow them to take the offer. They have an innate need to complain and post on and on....all the while stating how important their phone service is and how their wives complain. One would think that if it is really that bad, they would move on...at no charge.
This behavior really begins to tell you about how a person is constructed and the problems are theirs and not yours, and the infrastructure comments have nothing to do with it-they just have nothing else to say.
I have always wondered about people telling someone how to run their business, especially if the business is working well for 99%.
A suggestion or question is one thing, but the philosophical/moral discussions from people who I can bet have not lived an absolutely virtuous life are ridiculous.

Sure, the economic situation is pressing virtually everyone, but to be able to have the quality of phone service that I have-at the price I am paying, should be a joy for everyone.

Just keep up the good work and don't let those few get to you..

burris

gbh2o
04-07-2009, 05:47 AM
It's just a matter of age and wisdom Tim.

Back in my younger days, I too was privileged to have a clear crystal ball and magic wand that allowed me to second guess everyone and anything, _and_ tosee clearly and be able to fix anything! ;-) Now that I've aged a bit, the crystal ball has clouded and cracked a bit, and the magic wand has a damn intermittent short, I can still try to second guess everyone and anything even though I'm half blind, and attempts to fix things may still reflect brilliance, but often it's just the reflection of the arcing from the short in the damn wand! ;(

The real difference? I used to just have a solid belief that I was the best and knew what was right; now, with age and the wisdom that comes with it, I am positive that I know more than anyone else that I can find through the fog, and know that I'm near invincible ( except for that damn short that I'm still trying to track down.) :D

So, you see, since I'm fully qualified to provide forty year old solutions to problems that didn't even exist before you were in diapers, I've got to know far more about what you're doing than you do. And, the best part, my advice is free and I get to hear myself talk.

Montano
04-07-2009, 12:13 PM
Well it's the interwebs, where everyone is all knowing :)

fisamo
04-07-2009, 01:01 PM
When it comes to debating in a thread about your infrastructure, it seems to me that you only stand to lose by posting. After all, someone can "always" do it better than the experts, and everything "always" needs improvement. At best, you'll be able to say, "I'm right" publicly; at worst, you're giving out too much proprietary information on your network (whether a security breach or giving your competitors too much of your infrastructure information).

As for the drama over at DSLR, I'll just say that for a while, CallVantage was the topic of the day, then ViaTalk, then SunRocket, then ViaTalk, now Voipo. You've made a pretty significant splash (at least in the world as known by the members of the BBR VoIP forum) when you launched. Since launch, you've seen several challenges, which only adds to the drama. IMO, your best bet is to participate in the discussion when you have something important to add (or your integrity to defend), and do your best to not need that integrity defense. :)

Case in point, your request here for people to update their reviews was _NOT_ wrong, unethical, immoral, etc (IMO). However, it clearly offended some peoples' sensitivities and put you in the position of having to defend yourself. Think about it--10+ reviews of a particular ISP's product in a 1-2 day time span isn't normal around here, especially if it's not right at an obvious "big event" (such as launch, major feature addition, website overhaul/redesign, etc). That kind of spike in review activity will get noticed and called out on the BBR VoIP forum.

scott2020
04-07-2009, 01:11 PM
Don't worry about the 25 people who read DSLR. What percentage of the Monday morning QB's of VOIP there make up your whole customer base? Some of these nerds need to get a life.

If they have problems with Comcast, Charter, Verizon, AT&T, do those people contact their CEO's and start demanding infrastructure information? If they do, do they get a care in the world from those companies? I don't think so. And it's none of their business.

You just do what you do the best you can and good things will come. Being honest and taking care of the customer goes much farther in the long run that what a few zit faced know it all jerks in their mom's basement say in some anonymous geek web forum.

Scott

usa2k
04-07-2009, 01:11 PM
If the reference to negative reviews was omitted in this forum,
nobody would have looked at the request sideways.

I agree about the infrastructure.
Tim has told plenty about where its going. That is enough.

The Review subject will die down eventually, but IMO the thread should be locked by now because it has turned into rehashing the same points without even staying on the topic of what VOIPo said. Now its off topic about what the VOIPo users believe and have done.

Tim would have likely had more people doing review updates if he just said -
"have you looked at, and updated your VOIPo review lately?"

bretski
04-07-2009, 01:57 PM
You just do what you do the best you can and good things will come. Being honest and taking care of the customer goes much farther in the long run that what a few zit faced know it all jerks in their mom's basement say in some anonymous geek web forum.

...and if that doesn't work, this guy will take care of them:

http://www.horrordvds.com/reviews/misc/pictures/nerds.jpg
NERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRDS!!!!!!!!!!!

Xponder1
04-07-2009, 09:26 PM
For what its worth your now down to only 4 negative reviews. Someone had a change of heart.

burris
04-08-2009, 03:16 AM
For what its worth your now down to only 4 negative reviews. Someone had a change of heart.

Is it acceptable for someone to have a change of heart??

I'm sure we'll hear about it....;)

frankd1
04-08-2009, 04:45 AM
Along the same lines it's with the reviews, some people want to "prove" that we tried to get people to change reviews even though that was not the case.

When we have a special, some of the same people post that we "need cash" even though we have huge liquidity right now.

Obviously trying to interact with the community provokes a lot of this and it's just part of it, but it seems like lately it's been on the rise.

Maybe people are just tense about the economy?

Like others mentioned, there are a million armchair QBs out there (I'm guilty of gracing you with my opinion a few months back). And the economy, along with the system hiccups, is defintely bringing the worst out of people. I do think you ABSOLUTELY need to keep communicating, like you've always done. But with the recent problems, everyone thinks they know the fix, so you need to just communicate the problems/status/remedies in timely fashions, and turn a deaf ear to suggestions or specific questions about your architecture. It's nice for us nerds to be talked to as peers, but you sometime need to change hats and be an authoritative voice presenting the facts, not open for discussion, as long as you're delivering on the announced gameplans.

In regards to the reviews, I do think it was a diplomatic dud the way you presented it, even though it was completely innocent. You're obviously getting screwed with the DSLR rankings process, so the better approach (IMO) would be to relay (like you did) what was happening and the inherent BS of the system, and ask people (if they were comfortable) to tell their friends and fellow board trolls about their hopefully good VOIPo experience (and maybe even start lobbying the DSLR mods for a new, well balanced ranking algorithm, since a lot of people make decisions based on GBU). A lot of us would read between the lines and post or repost our reviews to counteract reviewers who were skewing results. Others would just discuss the screwed up ranking system. Either way, you'd get some good exposure: improved ratings, and board discussion of how a few whiners with too much time on their hands are skewing the ratings. Any flames would be between users, keeping you above the fray.

Anyway, my $.02 at 3;43AM.

Russell
04-08-2009, 05:32 AM
In regards to the reviews, I do think it was a diplomatic dud the way you presented it, even though it was completely innocent. You're obviously getting screwed with the DSLR rankings process, so the better approach (IMO) would be to relay (like you did) what was happening and the inherent BS of the system, and ask people (if they were comfortable) to tell their friends and fellow board trolls about their hopefully good VOIPo experience (and maybe even start lobbying the DSLR mods for a new, well balanced ranking algorithm, since a lot of people make decisions based on GBU). A lot of us would read between the lines and post or repost our reviews to counteract reviewers who were skewing results. Others would just discuss the screwed up ranking system. Either way, you'd get some good exposure: improved ratings, and board discussion of how a few whiners with too much time on their hands are skewing the ratings. Any flames would be between users, keeping you above the fray.

Anyway, my $.02 at 3;43AM.

Let me start of by saying I'm seriously evaluating VOIPo - as the days go by more issues with the infrastructure are getting fixed, which is great - so I have a vested interest in your success since I've paid up for 2 years and invested a fair amount of time working through infrastructure bugs. Hopefully, the last of these which affect me (router rebooting every hour) was fixed yesterday.

As a business owner, I too would want my business shown in the best light so I can well understand the motivation. I would agree with Frank's suggestions above - with one caveat: the initial post should have been on DSLR's VOIP TECH forum without the VOIPo tag. After all, it's an inherent criticism of that system and it's only fair it be published there. That way it would also apply to all companies which are rated by DSLR and so it would blunt any criticism that you're trying to game the system, as a post in a company forum with lots of loyal users may be interpreted. As Frank said your readers would have read between the lines.

ptrowski
04-08-2009, 06:45 AM
For what its worth your now down to only 4 negative reviews. Someone had a change of heart.


Not a change of heart, I updated it as things have been stable aside from not being able to use the * command to get voicemail. I see no issue in that.

Just as people were vocal when the VT service was not working well when they were having issues the same goes here. If my service is outstanding then I will rank it as so. If it's not then it is ranked as so. There isn't anything wrong with that.

I think the delivery of asking for updated reviews was the only issue. It would have been received better as "hey guys, just a reminder to keep the reviews updated quarterly:" or something along those lines. It gets the point across and the thread IMO would not have even been started.

Even if it was not posted there it seems suspect when all of the sudden you see tons of reviews come in for a company. I think recently Callcentric was another one that had a flood of reviews and it seemed odd. One that seems to be doing well about it (although they are almost all anonymous) is DSLExtreme. They send a message I believe after signup. So you get the reviews but not 10+ at one time and it isn't perceived as pumping the numbers up.

Not that any of you asked for my $.02 and all, but there it is.

Montano
04-08-2009, 02:02 PM
Wait... we're supposed to update our reviews ??

I'm such a lager. (as opposed to a stout or an ale)

:)

kevinj
04-08-2009, 06:25 PM
Interesting ... let me weigh in.

I am the anti-geek ... half the stuff written in this forum I don't understand, and the other half I don't know that I don't understand it.

Eventually, Voipo will have to crossover from the knowledgeable early-adopters who are willing (and interested) in tinkering, to the near-mainstream folks like me who are "out there" enough to be willing to go with non-Pots, but not up to the tech standards of the early adopters.

I found Voipo on DSL reports, and I was initially swayed by the relative scores of Voipo, PhonePower, and CallCentric.

I quickly dismissed CallCentric, because they were BYOD-only.

I initially thought Voipo was the way to go, and was impressed by Tim's "honest broker" persona on the DSL Report Forum.

My perception, tho, was that PhonePower was a bigger player, with a slicker website, and I was under-whelmed by the Voipo VPanel demo (I am a CallVantage refugee, and their "control panel" is to die for). I also thought that the cloned port concept was a killer app (and one that was not prominently boasted about on Voipo ... tho it is front-page material NOW).

But the DSL Report forum included strong user defense of Voipo, and also brought up the HostGator connection. On the other hand, there was no "buzz" about PhonePower. This made me feel more comfortable with Voipo's survivability ... and when I saw the word "cloned" on the Voipo site (and the lower price), I pulled the trigger.

Tim should stay active on the DSL Forum, but (somebody here) was right to caution him to offer Support and Facts, not Defense.

But, to be sure, the decision factors for me were:
1 - DSL report rating
2 - DSL report forum content
3 - Website

Once I get my ATTCV line ported and I actually use the phone (we are at the 14 day point now), I will sign on to DSL reports and be another happy user publicly.

Dunno if that floats anyone's boat here, but the "non-geek" has spoken! ;)

K

Russell
04-08-2009, 07:08 PM
Just as another point of view: I've never looked at the DSLR ratings when selecting a provider. I've been through Vonage, SunRocket, my current provider and am now about two weeks into my VOIPo trial. I maintain a Future-Nine account for their exceptional value for international calling. I rarely if ever look at the ratings - the recent brouhaha was an exception - and certainly did not when I signed up with any of the companies I've been with.

What got me to VOIPo? Quite bluntly:

1) the $199 (everything - taxes and activation too - included) for 2 years price (take note Tim!)
2) the hype in the VOIP Tech forum about the long beta
3) the 30-day trial period and Tim's presence on DSLR which to me implied the company would be less likely to not honor the 30-day trial if my trial was a disaster

Of course, certain features were a must and among them was what VOIPo calls the cloned second line which my current provider has offered for about a couple of years. It's funny - our call usage is very low. I guess I just enjoy the coolness of having that second line. Rock solid Voice-mail to email is important. Distinctive ring and custom caller id are other cool features from my current provider that we've gotten used to and which VOIPo supports. Of these, only the "rock solid Voice-mail to email" would be a deal breaker.

usa2k
04-08-2009, 07:39 PM
Just as another point of view: ...
So you basically got all you were looking for?

Xponder1
04-08-2009, 07:56 PM
I personally found out about VOIPo from Tim's posts on the Hostgator forums.

Tim, I would like to make a suggestion that you get with the B.B.B http://www.bbb.org to create a profile for your company and that you become accredited with them.
http://www.bbb.org/us/WWWRoot/SitePage.aspx?site=113&id=a519722a-7a5a-4af6-9377-6ed5b2d76840

I personally check with the BBB before I do business with anyone. You do not want to end up like Vonage for example http://www.bbb.org/new-jersey/business-reviews/data-communications-equipment-and-systems/vonage-in-holmdel-nj-11005249

for comparison there is Magic Jack http://www.seflorida.bbb.org/BusinessReport.aspx?CompanyID=92003333

so if I were choosing between the two I would go with Magic Jack due to the better rating.

Would never want to look like this... http://www.bbb.org/tulsa/business-reviews/building-inspection/locke-inspections-and-engineering-in-tulsa-ok-38000131

Russell
04-08-2009, 08:28 PM
So you basically got all you were looking for?

From a cost + advertised feature standpoint, yes. So, at the risk of stating the obvious, I'm motivated to stay. However, if you go through my postings you'll see I experienced various server side issues - that area has been re-architected and is now working. A separate issue (ATA rebooting hourly) was fixed yesterday. So, as of yesterday, I have no outstanding issues. Like Burris, I hope to just enjoy the service. Unfortunately, our phone usage is minimal - I'm forcing more than normal usage just to exercise the system.

usa2k
04-08-2009, 08:45 PM
:) I bet I use the phone less, but paid for two accounts before cloned line existed!

Russell
04-08-2009, 09:12 PM
:) I bet I use the phone less, but paid for two accounts before cloned line existed!

Some of us have more disposable income for toys / phone lines than others :-).

usa2k
04-08-2009, 09:25 PM
Some of us have more disposable income for toys / phone lines than others :-). Not anymore :(

I'm on a job search after almost 27 years!:(

burris
04-09-2009, 04:47 AM
:) I bet I use the phone less, but paid for two accounts before cloned line existed!

Guess what?

I did the very same thing. Are you going to keep yours?

Except for initially testing the line, I haven't made any calls and don't even have a phone plugged into the ATA because the clone works so well.

usa2k
04-09-2009, 08:50 AM
I have a two-line phone, one ATA for each line, so the dual line goes unused.
Come less than year from now ... hard to say what I do?
Perhaps one of my kids will want VoIP and they have the bandwidth?

The most likely daughter has the Comcast phone and Internet. (And DirecTV)

It does leave independent comparison if having an issue, or testing a beta feature. The price was certainly right. It also was a way to support the company that had free service to us for so long. There are no regrets!