Getting close to wit's end!

[Cortopassi]

Asking for any other potential theories or ideas, please. FYI, Voipo support has been great and very responsive, but unfortunately we've not found a solution yet.

--Current major issue is calls will have the non-voipo side hearing pulsing/woo-woo-woo sound during the call, to the point of making me unintelligible. Placing the call again will not help. Doing the call in the other direction will not help. I hear the caller fine, it is only the other side hearing the pulsing.

The only thing that seems to fix this is time. Today, it happened in the afternoon for 5 calls straight. Later in the day, not a problem. I was not using my broadband connection in any other way during these times and I have 3Mb service.

I have Uverse 2wire 3600. Tried port forwarding/static IP, DMZ plus, no difference with any.

Voipo support has changed settings, put me on central and east servers, all to no effect.

Last piece of history is I was with another voip provider for 1.5 years before this with the exact same setup (except for the other provider's box was a Cisco) with not a single issue, so I am convinced it is nothing in my setup or connections.

Thanks for any comments/ideas/assistance!

[dtrose]

Have you tried using a soft phone only (with your SIP credentials)? This would eliminate the ATA as the culprit. I was having issues with delayed audio and or dead air. I then bought sip only phones, eliminated the ATA and the problem went away. I'm not a big fan of the Grandstream ATAs.

[usa2k]

Just as something that might help, just wondering about the physical location?
Could it be close to something creating some cross-noise? I remember a DSLR
(DSLR = http://www.dslreports.com/forum/voip) having an issue with some
provider, but it ended up being the ATA's proximity to their computer.

Also if you have the standard cloned lines, did you try the other phone port?

Also as a stab at the issue, are you 100% sure the the right wall-wart is powering it?
(Yes that was reported on DSLR too, when someone had "cleaned-up" their wiring.)

Most devices are well shielded and this is not a typical issue - maybe the Cisco
is better protected.

[Cortopassi]

Thanks. I will try to relocate the ATA and let everyone know.

Mike

[Cortopassi]

Relocating the ATA did not fix the problem.

I next tried removing the Uniden DECT phone system off the house wiring, and instead have only two corded phones tied in. In lots of testing and many long calls, at least for two days here, I am stable and noise/pulse free.

Has anyone ever heard of a DECT phone interfering with a VoIP box/service? This is the same DECT system I've had with ITPVoip for almost two years, without issues.

I am going to continue to run this way for a few more days to confirm.

Thanks,

Mike

[usa2k]

Glad you have an improved result. I do not have DECT, mine are the 5Ghz Unidens.
Effectively three phones as a load should have been alright too.

So you are tied into the house wiring. The NID must obviously be disconnected,
and the wiring worked fine with the old ATA. Perhaps you can plug the DECT into
the second phone port and leave the house wiring on the first? That would allow a
different comparison, but not allow all three phone sources to pick up the same line.

Just thinking . . .

[Cortopassi]

usa2k,

When you say the NID must be disconnected, you mean the junction box outside my house that brings the phone line in? It is not, because I am receiving my Uverse internet off the same phone line throughout my house. I just have the standard DSL filter dongles to my phones and the ATA.

I wonder, does that change your comments at all? Knowing that I have 3Mb/sec across my wiring perfectly stable for years, as shown be speedtest.net as well?

I like the idea of using the second port as well, but that's hard to do given the placement I want for the DECT basestation (kitchen).

Thanks,

Mike

[GreenLantern]

I was thinking along same lines as usa2k. You might try a different phone, or plug everything into a different wall jack somewhere. Or try powering off all other devices on the same breaker circuit. Maybe a bad surge protector. Something along those lines, possibly. Might be getting 60hz feedback into the setup somewhere.

[usa2k]

I was concerned that there might be a dial tone voltage source fighting the ATA.
If it were me, I'd put the DSL on the opposite wire pairs to keep the phone line
more isolated. (Or run a direct independent line to the DSL modem.)

Never having had DSL experience, I am not sure of possible caveats.

[Cortopassi]

Thanks for the ideas. Even though I am an EE with 25 years of experience, still doesn't mean I want to run a new phone line from the basement to the second floor through finished walls!

My latest update is I got three days of clean calls with the two wired phones, then I added the DECT back in and coincidentally or not, started getting the pulsing again. It is not 60Hz. I had the pulsing during a call and ripped out the DECT during the call, but the pulsing did NOT go away. So my coincidence and theory kind of got shot there. I replaced the DSL filter on the DECT phone with a new one, long shot but something else to try.

Outside of this, I have a ticket with Voipo to see if they can send me a different ATA, Grandstream or otherwise, to see if it is directly related to my specific box.

I can't rewire the house. Not when I had almost 2 years of voip service with a Linksys box and same DECT and same wiring without any issues.

[Cortopassi]

As an update, a couple hiccups along the way, but it does seem the pulsing type issues are gone now that I am connected directly to my DECT, and not to the house wiring.

I'm not 100% sure of this yet -- time will tell.

If this is the case, the only real discovery is it seems the Grandstream device is more sensitive to attached wiring than the Linksys device I used to have.

Mike

[Cortopassi]

To all:

Seems I found my root cause. I have Backblaze cloud backup running on my computer, which, once an hour, backs up any changed files to their server, hogging all the upload bandwidth. Even though there is supposed throttling of backblaze bandwidth, it doesn't seem to work effectively.

I was able to have a call with my wife, start the backup and get the pulsing sound. I would stop the backup during the call and the pulsing disappears. 100% correlated!

Woo hoo! But now I have to deal with backblaze!

This did not happen with Linksys/ITPVoip combo before Voipo, so I don't know why Voipo is so much more affected by this, but at least I found it!

[usa2k]

You sure are patient, and its paying off! :)

[Bob1962]

Have you tried using a soft phone only (with your SIP credentials)? This would eliminate the ATA as the culprit. I was having issues with delayed audio and or dead air. I then bought sip only phones, eliminated the ATA and the problem went away. I'm not a big fan of the Grandstream ATAs.

Yeah, they are very cheap looking, Vonage would send a nice Linksys RTP300 router, took care of all your network configuration and phones worked fine. Penny wise and pound foolish I guess?

[GreenLantern]

Anyone have experience with the Cisco/Linksys PAP2T?

Cost is a bit more than Grandstream, but would be worth it if it resolves issues.

[usa2k]

Mine is a PAP2T. I like it fine, but I am sure a Grandstream would be OK too.
I have a couple collecting dust. I remember GS seemed louder, but a nice
loud with great tone.

Its been a long time now since VOIPo shipped the PAP2T. I think the current
ATAs are GS 502 still? The average user likely has a router these days, but having
a built-in router likely helped customers get running sooner without feeling
tricked into needing more hardware.

I kind of miss my old original CISCO ATA 186 I bought as my first ever ATA an
ran it with iConnectHere.com credentials. A month later I discovered Vonage.
I never really met an ATA that didn't work. (OK Zoom and ZyXEL were mediocre.)

[VOIPoTim]

Anyone have experience with the Cisco/Linksys PAP2T?

Cost is a bit more than Grandstream, but would be worth it if it resolves issues.

They are both good devices.

With that said, there is a very big reason we use HT502s primarily....they have a built in router.

With residential customers, support will literally quadruple with PAP2Ts. Since there is no router, there is option to connect them directly to a modem. 99% of issues are caused by routers mishandling traffic. The best way to resolve that is to get the router out of the picture and connect the VoIP device to the modem then connect the customer's router downstream from it. Obviously this doesn't help in situations with a combo router/modem but for cable customers or ones with a basic DSL modem (without a router), it's a magic fix that will literally solve 99% of issues.

[Bob1962]

They are both good devices.

With that said, there is a very big reason we use HT502s primarily....they have a built in router.

With residential customers, support will literally quadruple with PAP2Ts. Since there is no router, there is option to connect them directly to a modem. 99% of issues are caused by routers mishandling traffic. The best way to resolve that is to get the router out of the picture and connect the VoIP device to the modem then connect the customer's router downstream from it. Obviously this doesn't help in situations with a combo router/modem but for cable customers or ones with a basic DSL modem (without a router), it's a magic fix that will literally solve 99% of issues.

You need to consider that your customers that used something like Vonage, were using a router before they got your service. Your HT 502 caused my Network printer and WiFi to crawl when it was in front of the router. You also should not assume that every one that uses your service has a simple setup with a USB printer. You should at least offer the option for a combo router ATA that does not take an IT to configure, you could charge an upfront fee for the device if that is what you need to keep your rates down on the service.

Any ways I am sending my ATA back to you, I am not going to bang my head to make and receive phone calls any more. Most of my life I used traditional phone service and take for granted a simple phone call that works perfect both directions. By the way my voipo support ticket is PMC-792461

Bob

[markbet]

You need to consider that your customers that used something like Vonage, were using a router before they got your service. Your HT 502 caused my Network printer and WiFi to crawl when it was in front of the router. You also should not assume that every one that uses your service has a simple setup with a USB printer. You should at least offer the option for a combo router ATA that does not take an IT to configure, you could charge an upfront fee for the device if that is what you need to keep your rates down on the service.

Any ways I am sending my ATA back to you, I am not going to bang my head to make and receive phone calls any more. Most of my life I used traditional phone service and take for granted a simple phone call that works perfect both directions. By the way my voipo support ticket is PMC-792461

Bob

Keep in mind, that some of us do not even have the voip experience of Vonage. I came right from AT&T. My situation is that I have a combo router/modem setup, and it was not a smooth transition since I do not have an electronics or an IT background, to say the least, I was pretty frustrated.

It does not help what so ever when a person on this forum tries to make you feel inadequate because of the fact some of us do not have an electronics background. My background is aircraft structures, I operate a 20 million dollar, three story tall, N/C controlled robotics machine that assembles the whole upper half of a Boeing aircraft fuselage, all in one program, and if it has an electrical problem, you call on a specialized electrical maintenance group, because if you jack with that piece of equipment, and mess it up, believe me, it is your ass.

My point is, I think Bob is correct, you should offer a person with a router/modem combo, a friendly ATA for those of us that are electronically challenged. I would have gladly paid a small fee up front to save me from the frustration, and the ridicule from a few on this forum, in a weak attempt to make themselves feel like they are superior to us that do not have this knowledge.

BTW, I have to say, the Voipo techs were very professional and patient with me to get me up and running, and I thank them for that. They did not try and belittle me for not knowing how to set my ATA up.

[Bob1962]

This is going to be my new Land line solution. I already owned one of these for a couple of years with its own quirky problems, but they do update the software frequently and I am going to give it another go. I have an extra cell phone from my VZW business account that I do not use, but ends up cheaper to have 5 phones then 4 so my 5th phone may have found a purpose?

http://www.myxlink.com/index.aspx

[ymhee_bcex]

They are both good devices.

With that said, there is a very big reason we use HT502s primarily....they have a built in router.

With residential customers, support will literally quadruple with PAP2Ts. Since there is no router, there is option to connect them directly to a modem. 99% of issues are caused by routers mishandling traffic. The best way to resolve that is to get the router out of the picture and connect the VoIP device to the modem then connect the customer's router downstream from it. Obviously this doesn't help in situations with a combo router/modem but for cable customers or ones with a basic DSL modem (without a router), it's a magic fix that will literally solve 99% of issues.

Tim, obviously you support a lot of customers, and you have better statistics than my experience. My dad lives in a retirement community, and his neighbors' technical skills are very limited (to put it charitably). Moreover, more than half of the people barely speak English. It happened that I helped a dozen of dad's neighbors with computer / network / VoIP phones. Out of them exactly one(!) used ATA/router as a router (Old Sipura SPA 2100). Everybody else had a router separately. Some had router built into Verizon modem; others needed wireless, so ATA/router wouldn't cut it; and yet others had a TV converter that allowed them to watch Russian or Iranian TV. Oh, and last year 3 of them got a Blu-Ray player that, obviously, needs to be connected to the Internet as well ;).

This experience prompted me to post a question (http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r26696519-Equipment-Who-needs-router-on-VoIP-adapter) on DSL Reports. As you can see, nobody came up with a real-life use case for built-in router.

So, having a built-in router may be helpful for troubleshooting purposes - but I really doubt that many people use it on a daily basis.

[Bob1962]

them to watch Russian or Iranian TV. Oh, and last year 3 of them got a Blu-Ray player that, obviously, needs to be connected to the Internet as well ;).

This experience prompted me to post a question (http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r26696519-Equipment-Who-needs-router-on-VoIP-adapter) on DSL Reports. As you can see, nobody came up with a real-life use case for built-in router.



Funny, most of the people that are having problems on this forum NEED and HAVE a router. Now would it be a smart business decision for Voipo to say we do not offer our service to businesses or people that use routers? I think that report is just stupid and based on the editors opinion, one opinion does not reflect a million peoples needs.

[usa2k]

My first Vonage back in 2003 was an ATA186, but the site recommended a Netgear 4 port router. I picked up both pieces through Vonage.
Even Vonage saw the need to provide a router solution (for an extra $40.)

My WRT54GL V1.1 running Tomato Firmware v1.23.1607 has been flawless for the time I've had VOIPo. Before that was a US Robotics modem for a
short bit. Ironically I've never forwarded ports with any service I've used(See my sig), and I've been on Wide Open West Cable, and Comcast for internet.
I always find it amazing that so many people can have so many issues (Be it Vonage, VOIPo, you-name-it ...) I often feel the conditions of success are
affected by:

1) Router
2) Local Network
3) Internet Provider
4) ATA device
5) VoIP provider
in that order.

I have no scientific proof, just observations and gut opinion.

[ram1220]

I often feel the conditions of success are
affected by:

1) Router
2) Local Network
3) Internet Provider
4) ATA device
5) VoIP provider
in that order.

I have no scientific proof, just observations and gut opinion.[/QUOTE]


Yes that is just your opinion. And my opinion and observation from my experience shows your list in the complete opposite direction. I NEVER had any problems with voip service until I came to VOIPo. And that's a fact.

[christcorp]

USA, definitely agree with the order of your list. In my home network, with 2 voip adapters, I have absolutely no issues. (other than some of the global issues that affect all customers at the same time; and are usually corrected quickly). I don't have ANY port forwarding on my home network. I also don't use the DMZ. Then again, I keep that network very bare bone. No QOS; Firewall turned OFF in the router; SPI off; UPnP off; SIP ALG off; etc... And both voip adapters work perfectly fine. I've been with voipo for about 5 years. Definitely no complaints.

I try not to make an observation based on my own experience. Good or Bad. It's too small of a sample size. But my observation is that most people's voip issues can usually be taken care of within their own network. I know some people think that they shouldn't have to touch their network. That a voip adapter should indeed be 100% plug and play. Well; that's not realistic. Maybe yours was with vonage, but I can list posts after posts of vonage customers who had plenty of network problems trying to get their vonage voip to work. The same thing can be said for every single voip provider and customer in the country. Some have a seamless plug and play experience. Some have to tweak their network, or move on to another provider. To think that a voip provider should be able to coexist 100% with complete compatibility, with hundreds of internet providers and thousands of possible network configurations is not only impractical, but very naive. But they can get close to being compatible with the majority. And voipo definitely does quite well with the majority. If not, they wouldn't have been around this long. I have seen dozens of voip providers come and go. Some lasted a year or two; some only a month or two. VoipO spent 2+ years alpha and beta testing their network before they'd even allow any customers to pay for the service. They were determined to try and be the most compatible and user friendly; as well as customer service; voip provider around. I think they've done a real good job.

Problem is, with anything, if a person has a negative experience, they can't simply admit that they are unique. Not saying it's their fault; just saying they are unique. People don't want to hear that. If they have a problem, they must convince themselves that everyone or most other people also are having a problem. Like buying a car that's a lemon. You see it all the time. A person says that they'll never buy a Ford, because "They Suck". The person had a bad experience, and therefor it MUST be Ford's fault. Therefor, ALL/Most ford customers must also be having a bad experience. Truth is; this individual is not the norm, average, or anywhere close to the majority. And you'll have just as many people say the same thing about GM, Toyota, Honda, etc... They simply can not admit that they are unique. That for them, that particular car just wasn't right. They'd have to admit their imperfection. Well; voip is no different. There's a reason that there are SO MANY VOIP PROVIDERS out there. No one voip provider can be all things to all people. Can't happen; never will; and to expect otherwise is naive. In Ram's case, he had a great experience with Vonage. Good for you. And for the things that were important to you, vonage was a great service. But each voip provider has certain things they offer that others don't. Some, it's price. Some, customer service. Some, features. Some, reliability. For the longest time, I was with Packet8. They had absolutely no features. They were more expensive than most other providers. But they had very good customer service, and their phone service ALWAYS WORKED. Then again; they are a publicly traded company, and they moved at a much slower pace. They eventually changed their business model and only sell business services. No residential.

Anyway; there's absolutely no way VoipO or any other provider can provide a service that is 100% compatible with every ISP and network configuration possible. Not out of the box. That's not practical and it's naive to think otherwise. For some, it will take some tweaking. Even on their end. The only way you can guarantee 100% compatibility, is with a closed network. That is what Ma'Bell is. The phone companies are 100% a closed network. It's their wire to the house. Their wire down the street. Their central office. Their fiber leaving town. Their equipment across the country. Plus; the bell system is a standard. ALL phone companies use the same standard. Can't do that with voip. It relies on an internet that has mixed latency; mixed technologies; mixed jitter; mixed bandwidth capacities; mixed hardware; mixed backhaul providers; mixed home networks; etc...

[burris]

Mike...

You really said it well...sums it up perfectly..

burris

[VOIPoTim]

This thread is being closed.

I feel that the last 2 posts explain the situation well. Due to the turn this thread took, I have cleaned up some of the obviousy argumentative posts that were not productive and have also removed further posts beyond the last two posts which were only dragging out this debate). The bottom line is that different VoIP services work better for different people depending upon their variables (router, ISP, home network setup, calling patterns, etc).

Less than 1% of our customers have ever even contacted our support team so that shoudl be a good indicator of how our service performs for the majority. With that said, the service is not for everyone and may not be compatible with all home networks, routers, ISPs, etc. For customers that fall into the 1% with problems, we understand and offer a full 30 day money back guarantee.


To the users having issues in this thread, we are sorry that VOIPo did not work for you and hope that you find a provider that meets your needs and works well with your setups. With that said, our forum is not an appropriate venue for continued debating or bashing. It is meant for good-natured discussion between customers.

While we generally allow everyone to express their opinion (good or bad), there is a point where we have to draw the line.

This thread is being closed.